What is immodesty for men?

Modesty for men most often translates to covering the torso and legs with loose clothing . Different groups of Orthodox Jews have different dress norms. But all have men dress in a head covering (kippah).

What counts as immodest?

This shows grade level based on the word's complexity. not modest in conduct, utterance, etc.; indecent; shameless . not modest in assertion or pretension; forward; impudent.

What does modesty mean in the Bible?

Modesty is an attitude of humility and decency in dress, grooming, language, and behavior . If you are modest, you do not draw undue attention to yourself. Instead, you seek to “glorify God in your body, and in your spirit” (1 Corinthians 6:20; see also verse 19).

What does modesty culture mean?

It is most often associated with the oppression of women in conservative societies. What defines modesty culture is simple. Girls and women in a modesty culture are required to dress so that boys and men are not distracted by their attire .

Should a man control what a woman wears?

No, that's not normal or healthy behavior. In a healthy relationship, one partner doesn't control what the other person gets to wear . What you wear should be completely up to you—it's your wardrobe and your body! If your boyfriend is telling you otherwise, that is a red flag.

What is the dress code for Catholic men?

Both men and women need to cover their knees and upper arms . Visitors are prohibited from wearing sleeveless tops, and low-cut shirts. Shorts or bottoms that end above the knee: Women, If you are wearing a skirt, dress, or pair of shorts then make sure they end below the knee at least.

Guys on Immodesty, Lust, and the Violence of Women’s Bodies (2024)

Lisa Wade, PhD on July 27, 2010

Crossposted at Jezebel.

Robin E. sent us to a downright fascinating set of survey results. Administered by a Christian website, the survey questions were submitted by “Christian girls” who wanted to know what “Christian guys” think is modest. 1,600 guys then answered the survey, offering both quantitative and qualitative answers. Why would girls care what guys, as opposed to God, think? Because Christian guys, their future husbands, are judging them on their modesty. Ninety-five percent of them say that modesty is an important quality in their future wife (see the question in the upper left corner):

So, how do these “guys” define immodesty? The most common theme was dressing to draw attention to the body instead of the heart or spirit.

Something that is immodest is something that is designed to arouse lust within me (male, age 24).
Something that is immodest is something that is unnaturally revealing (male, age 20).
Something immodest draws attention to a girl’s body (male, age 28).

Many of the guys stressed that they really wanted to interact with girls as people. Borrowing language from feminism, they expressed a desire to think of a girl as a whole person, not just a hot body.

Something attractive draws you toward them. It makes you respect the person. Something immodest is usually unattractive. It makes you think less of that person, thinking of them as an object… (male, age 16).
My responsibility is to not treat women as objects for my satisfaction, even if they dress and act like it. It devalues them, and makes me a user of people… (male, age 26).

In a move that is in contrast to (most) feminist values, however, girls are supposed to help men treat them like people by not dressing like an object. That is, by not dressing immodestly.

So what rules for girls did guys identify?

Well, first, guys largely agreed that revealing clothes were immodest (again, see the question in the upper left corner):

Halter tops and mini skirts, I suppose, are obvious candidates for immodesty. There were lots more subtle rules, too, though with less agreement.

Forty-four percent of guys think that designs on the back pockets of jeans are immodest (19% aren’t sure):

A minority, 19 percent, think that shirts with pockets are immodest (25% aren’t sure):

Forty-eight percent think that purses should not be worn across the body (19% aren’t sure):

Thirty-nine percent oppose tights with designs (25% aren’t sure):

Forty-seven think that t-shirts with messages across the front improperly draw attention to breasts:

But being modest wasn’t simply a matter of clothes. Guys defined immodesty, also, as an “attitude” or a “carelessness.” Attaining modesty was also about how you use your body and the way you act, “sexually or otherwise.”

An immodest lady is loud, proud, and dresses in a way that communicates such an attitude (male, age 24).
Something becomes immodest when the person wearing it has an attitude of carelessness (male, age 17).

As one guy said:

If you are dressing to get attention from a guy, then anything you wear can be immodest (male, age 13; my emphasis).

Some examples of behavior the guys mostly agreed was immodest:

Immodesty, then, is not simply about being vigilant about your clothing (don’t wear a purse that falls diagonally across your body, don’t show your arms or your thighs), it’s a constant vigilance about how you display your body (don’t stretch, bend, or bounce). “Clothing plays a part in modesty, but it is only a part,” an 18 year old male explains, “Any item of clothing can be immodest” (his emphasis).

In addition, these rules are potentially changing all the time. A “technically modest” outfit, such as a school uniform, can suddenly have immodest connotations (so watch MTV, girls, to stay on top of these shifting meanings):

This is a great deal of self-monitoring for girls. Not just when they shop, but when they get dressed, and all day as they move, and with constant re-evaluation of their clothes and how they fit. But, the rationale is, they must be vigilant and obey these rules in order to protect guys from the power of all bodies (both their own sexiness, and men’s biological response to it). Guys are burdened with lust, they insist.

A lot of the guys in this survey talked about temptation. In some cases, the men would use very powerful words, such as this guy defining immodest:

Immodest: Screams that her body is different than mine. Attempts to manipulate me. Forcefully offers to trade what I want (in the flesh) for what she wants: attention (male, age 30).

This language — suggesting that women’s bodies “scream” at him, attempt to control him, and “forcefully” tempt him — is reminiscent of Tim Beneke’s interviews with men about sexual violence in Men on Rape. Michael Kimmel (summarizing Beneke in Guyland) discusses how lots of the terms used to describe a beautiful, sexy woman are metaphors for danger and violence: “ravishing,” “stunning,” bombshell,” “knockout,” “dressed to kill,” and “femme fatale.” “Women’s beauty,” Kimmel surmises, “is perceived as violence to men” (p. 229).

This is very much like the rationale for the burqa. Women’s bodies incite men’s sexual desires, sometimes to violence; they must be kept hidden.

These Christian guys, however, did claim responsibility for their own thoughts, feelings, and actions. When asked about their role in avoiding lust, many were adamant that it was their own responsibility. Many felt that innocent, shameless, platonic interaction between men and women was a team effort:

Sisters in Christ, you really have no concept of the struggles that guys face on a daily basis. Please, please, please take a higher standard in the ways you dress. True, we men are responsible for our thoughts and actions before the Lord, but it is such a blessing when we know that we can spend time with our sisters in Christ, enjoying their fellowship without having to constantly be on guard against ungodly thoughts brought about by the inappropriate ways they sometimes dress. In 1 Corinthians 12 the apostle Paul presents believers as the members of one body – we have to work together. Every Christian has a special role to play in the body of Christ. That goal is to bring glory to the Savior through an obedient, unified body of believers – please don’t hurt that unity by dressing in ways that may tempt your brothers in Christ to stumble (male, age 24).

The asymmetry of this project, however, is striking. The lust is men’s; the bodies are women’s. It’s an asymmetry built right into the survey design. Modesty is something pertains to only girls and immodesty is something that guys get to define. This may be even more pernicious than women’s constant self-monitoring. It erases women’s own desires and the sex appeal of men’s bodies, leading women to spend all of their time thinking about what men want. By the time they do have sex, and most of them will, they may be so alienated from their own sexual feelings that they won’t even be able to recognize them.

Sources:

Beneke, Tim. 1982.Men on Rape. New York: St. Martin’s Press.

Kimmel, Michael. 2008.Guyland: The Perilous World Where Boys Become Men. New York: Harper Collins.

Lisa Wade, PhD is an Associate Professor at Tulane University. She is the author of American Hookup, a book about college sexual culture; a textbook about gender; and a forthcoming introductory text: Terrible Magnificent Sociology.You can follow her on Twitter and Instagram.

Comments 435

Jeremiah — July 27, 2010

"The asymmetry of this project, however, is striking. The lust is men’s; the bodies are women’s. It’s an asymmetry built right into the survey design. Modesty is something pertains to only girls and immodesty is something that guys get to define."

So, this is really a continuation of male privilege. It's not that the asymmetry is "built into the survey", but that it's built into the basic world assumptions so fundamentally that it avoids question. Quite remarkable.

Aside: it would be interesting to put these results in front of a pool of subjects and measure how much people agree/disagree with the statements, but for the control group, indicate these attitudes to be reflective of *Muslim* boys/men. I'm willing to bet a higher number of Americans would agree with "immodesty" when it's aligned with Christian values, whereas they'd be more likely to reject these ideas if they were associated with Islam. I could be wrong, but it would be interesting to see.

Great post.

Baxter — July 27, 2010

i've been raised catholic so far, complete with youth groups, prayer meetings, and all the other things that go along with being a teenager in a very religious christian family, and let me tell you: if i had a penny for each time i've been told something along the lines of 'boys brains are wired differently from girls', or 'boys get aroused very easily by girls bodies, but girls don't have the same problem with boys' and of course 'boys only think about one thing, so you have to be very careful what you do around them' well believe you me, i'd be able to buy the freaking vatican. do christians really think girls have no eyes? no feelings? jeez, do they think we're a different species from boys? it makes me want to gargle bullets

Alice — July 27, 2010

What really made me laugh was "Something that is immodest is something that is unnaturally revealing". Unnaturally revealing? There is no such thing as "naturally" concealing! Clothes are, by definition, unnatural!

The whole thing about bouncing kind of got to me too. I suppose girls are therefore prohibited from exercise in front of men? Or allowed as long as their boobs are small enough not to bounce (or small enough not to bounce in a sports bra)?

XL — July 27, 2010

Also interesting to see that not only are the 'girls' expected to adapt their clothing, but their bodies as well.

"Seeing a girls' chest bounce as she walks is a stumbling block."

So, what, women with big breasts should get reduction surgery? Bwhuh? Because I have plenty experience with different types of bras, and the only thing that made my chest NOT bounce was a corset. And I doubt these proper Christian lads would think that to be very modest.

Brandon — July 27, 2010

"Immodest: Screams that her body is different than mine."

Newsflash to survey respondents: women's bodies ARE different from yours.

DoctorJay — July 27, 2010

From the survey, a 22 year old answers this question:

How do you feel about girls who purposely flaunt their bodies?

"They're distracting good men, dishonoring God and marriage, and offering themselves cheaply--which makes me desire even more strongly a girl who is modest, who is valuable."

This gets right to the core of the problem. Most of the other males state they feel sorry for the flaunter, or wish they had more self-respect. But this boy sees them as having no value. Scary. It reminds me of dating service come-ons that state you can find "quality singles". Value and Quality aren't attributes that should be placed on human beings.

Here's another quote. A 16 year old answers:

What's the difference between attractive and immodest clothes?

"Well, I'm not totally sure how to put it into words, but I want you ladies to really know that there definitely is a difference and that guys notice it."

Got it ladies? He can't really say what might turn him on, but you'd better believe it affects his opinion of you.

The ironic thing about all of this is that these males are complaining about the things they get pleasure from, ie; seeing a woman bent over, or tugging her bra strap, or showing off her legs. They're afraid of their own desires, so they want to control other people's too. So sad.

JihadPunk77 — July 27, 2010

Why do you call them Christian GIRLS and refer to males as Christian GUYS?? Why aren't they called Christian BOYS?

DoctorJay — July 27, 2010

OMG, these are amazing:

"The key question is, what is the purpose of a girl's physical attractiveness? If it is seen as a means to lure the heart of every man she meets on the street, it will lead to immodesty. If it is seen as a gift from God to fulfill her role as help mate to her husband through marital affection, she will dress and behave with modesty."

And

"Your body is like a car that God has given you to drive through this life. Immodesty is when all your do is prepare the paint job on your car and neglect your engine. Then when someone gets in your car, they will end up stranded and lonely. Attractive, on the other hand, is when you hire the Great Mechanic to improve your engine. Then when someone gets into your car (i.e. marriage) they will have a blast and will be carried through the good times, as well as the bad. That is the difference!"

pata — July 27, 2010

I'm sure glad I haven't deluded myself into believing that some omnipotent grandpa in the sky cares about how I wear my purse strap!

I married an agnostic, and I couldn't care less about 'leading men astray.' If they haven't managed to learn control of their body parts around FIFTY PERCENT OF THE SPECIES, they shouldn't be leaving the house in the first place. That's not my responsibility.

Baxter — July 27, 2010

i think the main problem with the whole survey is that even though it pretends to be for the purpose of helping girls un-objectify themselves and be thought of as people, not just as bodies, that's exactly what the whole damn survey DOES.

Ames — July 27, 2010

Next up, a serious study exploring the responsibility of cows, pigs, and chickens to be seen as something other than meat.

Steve — July 27, 2010

I think "unnaturally revealing" is the dumbest expression I have ever heard......

K — July 27, 2010

I'm familiar with this survey and the group that conducted it. It's originally from a website called Rebelution (yes, with a "b"). It's part of the "new patriarchy" movement, which is a minor Christian movement that seeks to subjugate women to men. You can read all about it (far more than you'd ever want to, really) on ladiesagainstfeminism.com

Samantha C — July 27, 2010

alright, burlap sack it is.

I love how very leading all these questions are. I wonder if the results might be different if instead of the prompts saying "X is immodest, y/n", they were given a simple list of articles of clothing with a 1-5 scale, and "rate in terms of modesty from 1-immodest to 5-super-modest". That maybe without seeing WHY it's supposed to be immodest and draw attention to the 'wrong' places, they wouldn't think of purses or t-shirt sayings as things they'd have been 'ungodly' drawn to.

It really is interesting though, to see the feminist language used this way and so wrong. Yes, women want to be treated as people, and that's a good start to have. But 'treated as people' also means that people who aren't virgins are still human and shouldn't be shamed, and we don't want to have to walk on eggshells to be friends with you. I almost wish for the chance to try to explain that to these guys just to see how they'd react.

Anonymous — July 27, 2010

LOL. I find this funny. If these women are asking a group of men how they should dress to get this group of men's approval. Then they are the ones dressing for a man's attention

Leslee Beldotti — July 27, 2010

Perhaps at the core of all of this is the implication that women who dress immodestly are more likely to have (or had) multiple sexual partners, making them less desirable mates for the purposes of reproduction.

chickadee — July 27, 2010

Yeeeeah... how about if the women dress for comfort, and the guys who feel incapable of reigning in their pee-pees can just bolt on some big ol' iron Chastity Pants.

Jay — July 27, 2010

As much as I enjoyed this post, the line

"This is very much like the rationale for the burqa."

bothered me. By describing it as "THE rationale" instead of "A rationale", you're presenting as monolithic something that is actually very nuanced. As an American feminist, I have had to question my own response to veiling, and articles like this have been very informative for me:

http://www.racialicious.com/2010/07/22/behind-what-veil-muslim-female-dress-and-its-critics/

Umlud — July 27, 2010

Just a minor technical quibble. To me, "aren't sure" and "neutral" are not the same thing. I can be 100% sure that I don't care one way or the other. However, given only the options presented, and if I wasn't sure, then it is true that I might answer "neutral". In a different design, it might be nice to have another option, such as a "Not sure" to complement that "Neutral" position, but you shouldn't conflate "Not sure" (possibly analogous with a N/A) with "Neutral".

After running the numbers, it appears that -- based on what you were showing above -- there was a maximum of 1229 respondents (for the modesty-is-important-for-a-wife-to-have question). However, some of the responses shown had as little as 995 responses (for the stretching and the chest-bouncing questions), or a 19% non-response. Yet, you make no mention that 19% of the all the respondents didn't answer these questions.

Sarah — July 27, 2010

Wow. That was a very startling look back into my days in high school and jr high. I grew up in a very conservative youth group and was very much part of the whole modesty movement and was determined to dress in a way that would not cause my male friends to 'stumble.' Thankfully I have moved out of that time and am now a self-actualized female, but it has had some lasting impacts on me that I hadn't really realized until reading this passage: "It erases women’s own desires and the sex appeal of men’s bodies, leading women to spend all of their time thinking about what men want. By the time they do have sex, and most of them will, they may be so alienated from their own sexual feelings that they won’t even be able to recognize them." I wasn't doing it for my own feelings of religious duty, I was doing it for male approval. That constant focus on the male's experience is something that is persistent in my later life and had never really made sense to me. I wasn't sure why, as a feminist and a confident 23-year old woman, I was so focused on serving men. I had been trained to by my youth leaders for so long, that it makes sense. Honestly, I feel that the burden to dress modestly is as, or more, damaging than the pressure to dress seductively and attractively. With modesty, there is not only the issue of gaining approval from men, but there is the shame factor built in. Women who dress to feel attractive to men at least see themselves as someone who can be attractive. Women who are pressured to dress modestly only see themselves as being able to be beautiful by hiding themselves. I am so sad that there are a large group of girls suffering through that shame and sexual repression. I am daily glad that I have escaped that situation and am determined to tailor my appearance and my lifestyle to please only myself. My body is my own.

A — July 27, 2010

This is a little scary. I could see some of these guys snapping and shooting up a women's gym or something because we women torture them constantly with our pockets and the fact that when we breathe, our chests move.

Amadi — July 27, 2010

I'm reminded of a minister of music of my former family church. Because she spent the vast majority of her "public" time in services with her back to the congregation, in order to direct the choir and orchestra, she had a collection of suits with some sort of simple but interesting detail on the back, a ruffle around the kicksplit of her skirt, a belt with decorative clasp on the jacket, embroidery on the shoulders, something like that. The women in the church loved her suits, thought the detailing was inventive and universally praised her fashion sense.

But at her first annual review before the church board (all men) she was chastised for her suits (and she had about 80 of them) because they were deemed to inappropriately drew attention to her body in an immodest way. From then on, she was required to wear one of the disgusting, hot, unbreathing, shapeless, polyester choir robes whenever she was directing.

Ultimately, male-formulated modesty guidelines imposed upon women are a form of exerting control, and in the religious realm, a form of exerting both physical and psychological control in a rather onerous way.

Mishou — July 27, 2010

How about as sociologists we use projects like this one to better try to understand the diverse experiences of people other than ourselves. We don't have to agree with the opinions, thoughts, beliefs or clothing choices of others, but I would expect a lot more than a snark-fest that belittles the choices and beliefs held by others. In doing so we are also responsible for denying these young women respect and agency. As much as it might not be your cup of tea, denying that these young women and men may be exercising choices that are meaningful to them is not helpful.

Also, nice to see that you didn't miss the opportunity to provide some stereotypical commentary on the "burqa". As already noted by Jay, you condense a very complex issue into your (rather orientalist) assumptions about the motivations of women and men who dress differently than you. You also very deftly manage to throw on a dash of anti-Muslim sentiment in suggesting that Muslims don't/can't "claim responsibility for their own thoughts, feelings, and actions."

Agency doesn't mean acting, dressing, behaving, etc in the way that you or I think is best. And an action is not meaningless just because it doesn't have meaning to you or I.

Che — July 27, 2010

Ugggh. Completely unsurprising, but still...

It reminds me a bit of when I was first coming out to myself as lesbian - I felt incredibly guilty using the locker room at the gym, as though the other women there might find me out and stone me - remembering how my mom used to warn teenage-me against changing at our swim team pool when the lesbian lady who worked there was around. But then I realized that, f'ck it - just because you're attracted to people of a certain gender doesn't mean you sexualize everyone of that gender. I went to medical school, worked as a doula, change in the women's locker-room, but, sh*t, that doesn't mean every naked woman gives me a lady-boner. I mean, really.

Baxter — July 27, 2010

more power to ya

Observer — July 27, 2010

Interesting analysis. The thing is, this is just a bunch of comments from random Christian guys. We have no indication that women actually feel like they need to engage in constant self-monitoring to make sure they're being modest. We'd have to ask or observe Christian women to see. My guess is that among highly conservative Christian groups, the general expectation is just that clothes aren't too tight or revealing.

In Orthodox Jewish communities, modesty (tzniut) is highly regulated, but even there, as far as I'm aware, there isn't a need to constantly self-monitor. Each community has its particular dress code (ie, how short skirts and sleeves can be, how tight clothes can be), and everyone pretty much dresses that way, and that's it. Newcomers sometimes have a hard time figuring it out, but otherwise it's not something that demands constant attention.

How do you know people would be alienated from their own sexuality? I don't see how recognizing one's own sexual feelings would be dependent on having them talked about all the time, or regulated by having men dress a certain way.

Jennifer — July 27, 2010

The responses to the Open question "As a guy, what is your responsibility in this area? What is your role in guarding your eyes and mind (as opposed to the women's role of dressing modestly)? " were generally heartening. When the question was framed in this way, respondents generally accepted that men had the greater responsibility for averting their eyes, and even for dressing modestly themselves (or perhaps only those who felt they had responsibility answered--it would be interesting to see how those who answered here responded to other things).

On the other hand, responses to how they felt "about girls who purposely flaunt their bodies" were often scary, saying that these women would cause men to do things (a tone often not used when the question was framed as above). There were very few compassionate responses--this is the best (albeit patronizing) example: "Age 30-34 I feel that we, as Christian men, need to treat them with a respect that other men may not. We need to keep in mind that they may feel the need to dress this way because of a need to be noticed - a possible result of childhood trauma or peer pressure. The last thing we need to do is criticize them or their manner of dress."

There weren't as many responses to the open-ended questions as to the survey as a whole, of course. It would be interesting to have a dialogue with the respondents about these contradictions, as well as the sensitivity of their responses to how the questions were framed, which I think points to the larger issue of how these issues are generally framed. That is, if the responses to the question about men's responsibilities are taken seriously, then why are we having a detailed discussion of the ways in which women should act and dress (instead of, perhaps, strategies for men to take that responsibility regardless of what women do)? One answer, of course, is that the women submitted these questions because they want men's opinions on them.

There is a bit of a tone here that religion is particularly backward and harmful to women--I'm not sure if that's the case. It seems like in our culture both secular and religious forces oppress and objectify women, but also provide tools to argue against such things. One could pull out examples from other institutions regarding sexism (military, p*rn industry, Wall Street, etc.) but there are counterexamples there as well.

Anonymous — July 27, 2010

I read this and exclaimed over "wearing a purse across the body" and my husband (who is not a Christian guy, by the way) responded "Oh yeah! That's sexy." Wow.

Clearly, anything and everything can be "immodest", which makes the whole concept a handy, all-purpose tool for oppression.

Leah Clairmont — July 27, 2010

The only remotely "safe" thing for us woman to do is run out and get all us evil women each a nice burqa. That way we don't have to worry so much about the thoughts going on in some guys HEAD about us!!!! I think pretty much anything can be turned into a sexual connotation if that is where you want to go with it... There is no way this side of heaven to actually set parameters for the whole worlds moral code.... If we all go out the door every day as focused on our own morality and determined NOT make it our mission to define the whole worlds moral code MAYBE we can learn the grace and acceptance which is actually what is modeled in the bible.

sokmunkeez — July 27, 2010

Well, short of a burlap burqua, I see no viable option. If a mans brain wants to turn every single little gesture, act, or article of clothing into a sex object, then perhaps the Christian male needs to re examine HIS morals. Just sayin.

Ragnvaeig — July 27, 2010

“Women’s beauty,” Kimmel surmises, “is perceived as violence to men” (p. 229).

Active female sexuality could be perceived as a threat to certainty over paternity in procreation and thus to a part of male fulfillment, so awareness and manipulation of beauty, being a part of that active female sexuality, might, by a broad definition, be a kind of violence.

Alex — July 27, 2010

I've seen this survey make the rounds on quite a few blogs, but people always have interesting things to say about it! My favorite part is some of the comments in the "swimwear" section. One says that girls should wear a modest swimsuit covered by a shirt made of "some material that does not cling to the body when wet.*" That would be, uh...what? Aluminum foil? Seriously, guys, that's all I can think of. Material clings when wet. If that bothers you so much, try a blindfold. Oh, that would inconvenience you? Then I guess your only option is to stay away from beaches or pools. Yes, *you* stay away from them. The girls are allowed to go. You don't get to change everyone else's behavior to suit yourself, but you can control your own.

*(I'm quoting from memory because I have to fix some dinner and wash some dishes so I have a fork to eat it with, and that won't happen if I go over to the survey site and get sucked in for hours, as has happened in the past. My wording might not be 100% correct, but I'm confident of the gist of it.)

Bosola — July 28, 2010

I'm just happy to see the burqa come in for some negative attention 'round here. I recall some serious pondering about whether female modesty codes were more oppressive than "the male gaze" not too long ago. I hope this look at (American) conservatives and their attitudes towards women's bodies has been illuminating. Gender-specific dress codes have nothing to do with liberation.

Snurgle — July 28, 2010

I showed my husband this article, he raised an eye brow or two reading it! One of his questions was 'are these young men obsessed with sex?', which does indeed seem to be the case. He spoke about when he was between 16 and 25 and while he was a typical young man with regards to his libido, he wasn't constantly thinking about sex whenever he saw a woman in a pair of shorts.

It seems that the upbringing of these men forces them to see temptation everywhere. There seems to be little emphasis on personal responsibility; it is the fault of the woman for tempting the man (now I wonder where that concept came from?).

I'm all for modesty in the sense of maintaining self respect, however when modesty is used as a replacement for healthy attitudes towards sexuality then this is the result.

Crochet, Bento, and Soap « Musings — July 28, 2010

[...] and I read this really interesting article. It’s about guy’s opinions of what makes for immodesty based on a survey on a [...]

Tugbot — July 28, 2010

I grew up Christian, and still am Christian, and while this is interesting to look at it is not close to how all Christians view modesty. I remember at my church camp there were standards of dress but they were applied equally to boys and girls. At regular church no one was shamed for their style of dress.
There are extremists and outliers to every group. I thought I'd just share some experience from middle area of Christianity.

tz — July 28, 2010

In answer to the question about the role of men in responding to immodesty, one man (19) writes: "We need to keep our thoughts pure and stop blaming girls for our impure thoughts. And guys can be modest too. Nobody EVER touches on that. We can be just as distracting to a girl as they are to us. Keep your shirt on. Pull your pants up. Seriously." Which is good to see. In fact, a lot of those responses acknowledge that women aren't to blame for leading men astray, so to speak, and that men are responsible for controlling their own thoughts.

Shae — July 28, 2010

Oh God, I want to barf now.

I haven't read the other 222 comments, so sorry if I'm being repetitive.

One of the many things wrong here is that apparently women can be immodest for totally innocent reasons. For example, I carry a purse diagonally because my shoulders don't hold up my purse well, and because when I'm walking in a city I don't want a passerby to easily snatch my purse. And those of us who wear a D-cup or larger know that you can wear any ole crappy t-shirt from old navy and end up showing some cleavage. It's just a fact of life, and some of us don't feel the need to wear turtlenecks in summer.

Not that I have ANY problem with someone dressing sexy intentionally, btw. But jeez.

Henri — July 28, 2010

agreeing with EVERYONE about big boobs = seen as slu*tty. my own mother-in-law said 'well you do dress provocatively' when i said i'd been screamed 'prostitute' at by a car of men - it's all my fault apparently. Literally, only the zipped-up winter jacket of my 6'4 fiance (I'm 5'2) is enough to conceal my boobs - which is what i now wear to my MIL's house, looking as much of a slob as I can, on purpose, because I am sick to death of my body being a focus and being seen as 'sexual' because it is chubby. I mean why can't people just piss off?

Alex — July 28, 2010

While I don't like when women dress overly slu*tty, this is utterly ridiculous and, to be honest, a bit sickening. It's skewed and just plain sexist. Are these men and boys seriously claiming they have absolutely no self-control. And I think they might want to investigate the 30 year-old talking about women's bodies screaming at him. Honestly, I immediately thought "serial killer" after reading what he said. Anyway, I think society already pressures women to obsess a little too much on their appearance. I would never think of pressuring any woman I know further with this Christian modesty bullsh*t.

Alex — July 28, 2010

And these guys claim to be the victims of female manipulation. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad. They're just hypocritical morons who deserve any mocking they receive.

Bing — July 29, 2010

Did this survey make anyone else really, really hot?

StephInEflat — July 29, 2010

As an a-cup woman, (really, does it get more modest?), I can assure you all that cup size doesn't much matter. Despite the gift of modesty via small breasts, I'm still going straight to hell as a result of men obviously staring at them. *sigh* They can only get so small! And danged if they don't still bounce on occasion (or at least vibrate).

Side note: A male friend of mine started life as a woman. He was a popular lesbian who had no problems hanging out in clubs, getting dates, and being around other women, but after starting on his transition, talking to women and being around women has become difficult for him. We're still friends, and he sometimes asks me, "What's going on? I've never had these problems before!?" I guess he still feels comfortable talking to me and my modest a-cup.

Mashow — July 29, 2010

@ Perseus - regarding equality and feminism.

First of all, equality is not an absolute position, because perfect equality does not exist where situations start out unequal. For example, the mother carries a fetus, and a father does not - by treating their parental rights equally, particularly while the mother is pregnant, they are getting the same treatment, but the result isn't really equality, as the father ends up getting more privileges than the mother.

Consider if you treated all citizens the same when it comes to taxation. Everyone, regardless of income must pay $5,000 in tax. Everyone is getting the same treatment, but it isn't equal. To some $5,000 is a fortune they couldn't possibly afford, and to others its hardly a bother. The effect it has on the citizens is unequal, though the treatment is the same. It would increase the gap between the rich and the poor, and make citizens' access to goods and services increasingly unequal. So, equality is much more loaded word than you realize.

Perhaps it's better to say that feminists are after fair and equal treatment for both men and women. But there's nothing black and white about this. Nothing is ever completely fair in this world, but we feminists fight to make things more fair. And that's what these conversations are about. We just want things to be more fair. Perhaps that is what you want too, but I think we have entirely different ideas about what is fair.

So, the debate continues....

Pavlov's Cat — July 29, 2010

"Seeing a girl's chest bounce when she is walking or running is a stumbling block"

Great, so men get to define me as immodest because nobody invented anti-gravity bras yet? My breasts bounce when I walk. This does not make me a slu*t. It is not something I can fix. Believe me, I'd love to, because it's not exactly comfortable.

Mike — July 29, 2010

Paradoxically, the cultures with the least sexual temptation are the ones where they are nude most of the time. This is because covering up bodies draws even more attention to the fact that something is being covered up, and leaves it to your imagination to guess what that is. This is why in Saudi Arabia, it's not enough to force women to wear burqas, they've also banned high heels, because the clicking sound also incites lust, sparking men's imagination of the forbidden body behind the veil.

But after so many centuries, how is it possible that religious authorities could have missed this obvious fact, that the more you prohibit something, the more tempting it becomes? Even the book of Genesis has this lesson. We can only conclude that religious sexual prohibitions don't repress sexuality. What if the prohibitions exist precisely to amplify sexuality to almost inhuman levels, so that the experience of sex becomes transcendent and ecstatic. In other words, sexuality is made into a quasi-religious experience, which makes it plausible for it to be under religious authority. In a sense, this means religious people are correct to claim that modern consumer culture cheapens sexuality. We're overexposed to images of sex in the media, which means our modern secular experience of sexual activity is much more ordinary -- I often hear the claim that sex is a natural bodily function like eating or breathing, in contrast to the Christian tradition that it's a mystical experience. In the Eastern Orthodox church, marriage (synonymous with sex, of course) is regarded as a Sacred Mystery. The union of two people, physically and in marriage, is intended as a metaphor for unity with God. So the disenchantment brought about by modernity also has effects on sexuality, so the popular opposition between religion and secular values as anti- and pro-pleasure respectively is wrong, strictly speaking. If anything, religion creates the conditions for control by enhancing pleasure, secularists undermine religious authority by removing pleasure, something that Marcuse called repressive desublimation.

Robin Lionheart — July 29, 2010

We're not telling you what to wear — we're just telling you what we, as guys, have to guard against. It is God's Word, your own heart and conscience, and your parents and godly friends who should help you decide what to do about it.

PZ Myers: What they have to guard against? They should be plainer. "We're not telling you what to wear — we're just listing the stuff that will justify raping you."

I love your smile — July 30, 2010

[...] Guys on Immodesty, Lust, and the Violence of Women’s Bodies [...]

Mashow — July 30, 2010

@Vainamo:
I completely disagree. I think that many of the differences between men and women are socialized and not naturally occuring. Moreover, I think people overestimate the differences between men and women. Look at how much variation there are between individuals. There are sensitive men, and women with excellent math ability and spatial orientation. There are women who are excellent at manual labour and men who would rather perform childcare. When enforce one-size-fits-all gender rules, it's not fair for anyone.

Take me for example:

In my relationship, I have to be in control because I am a control freak. Also, I'm more practically-minded and industrious than my boyfriend. I make more than him and I'm more ambitious with in my career. Where would I be if I had to submit to my husband? I couldn't have a working relationship.

At school, I always had top marks in all my subjects - in secondary, post-secondary, and doing my masters. I got a scholarship for having the highest mark in honours history. I'm not going to tell you that I'm smarter than everyone else, but I am academically-minded. For years, people thought that women could not be academics because their brains were better suited for raising children and gossiping, Where would I be now if I had not been allowed to go to university, and if I had been expected to learn housekeeping and child raising? Let me tell you, I'm terrible at cleaning and babysitting is my definition of a nightmare job. I make a much better office worker than homemaker.

I practice martial arts with a group of men. And why not? I can keep up with them. I'm one of only three highbelts in my class. At one point we had about 15 men in the class, and most of them dropped out because things got rough. Sure I'm weaker in my upper body and smaller which gives me a disadvantage at striking, but I have a stronger core and more flexibility, which makes me the queen of grappling. If my martial arts class wanted to join the army and be on the front lines, would you choose the quitters over me, simply because I'm a woman?

So why expect me to be certain way because I was born with xx chromosomes instead of xy? Why not let me do what I'm good at doing instead of forcing some arbitrary guidelines on me that would probably cripple my productivity and usefulness to society? Gender guidelines are extremely unfair and they are not conducive to the expeditious working of society.

Andy V — July 30, 2010

there are a few unfortunate things left out of the analysis. One has to do with responsibility: both men and women are going to fall short of the mark, and contribute to the problem. Men do this by failing to take responsibility for their own lust, and cross a boundary when they even insinuate that a woman "causes" him to stumble. The woman may have some things to think about in terms of her choices and motives, but in no way is it men's place to say anything about this. We live in the world we live in. God put us here. You don't get to make it easier on yourself by controlling others; you have to rise to the occasion and learn to put temptation in its place. It may take excruciating work, a long time, maybe even therapy, but it is still your responsibility guys.

On the other hand, women are not called out enough by this article. Women have just as much a role to play in the objectification game, only their role looks different. They are not typically the lusting pursuers (although they can be) - more often they undertake subtle manipulations with the intentions to become the object of lust. A woman may do this consciously or unconsciously - so she has just as much hard work and responsibility to take on as guys, to root out the intentions in her heart if her behavior suggests something unconscious is operating to draw attention to her body. It is not for me to judge whether an individual woman has this going on in her heart or not - maybe it's a nice day and she didn't feel like overheating - and I can simply look the other way if I have a problem with it. However, it is not excusable for anyone - man or woman- to look the other way from their intentions and behavior for the sake of maintaining their own self-image (ie, as a "good girl.") Some mothers do this with their sons and it is called emotional incest - and has the same damaging effects on a child's psyche as being physically molested. Mothers who grow up to do this often have been doing it their whole lives as young women, and no one called them out on it.

So there is some accountability we all need in order to root out our weaknesses and misguided intentions and become pleasing to God for what is going on in our hearts. It should come in the form of close personal relationships where we disclose embarrassing things about our intentions, not as objective standards communicated from the pulpit or through a "study." And the focus should not be on what we wear on the outside, but what our minds and hearts are doing. Didn't Christ teach us that much?

malakhgabriel» Blog Archive » The Importance of Language — July 30, 2010

[...] certainly called women “stunning” and “striking” before. A recent Sociological Images post on young Christian men’s view of modesty uses several different discussions on how men view women to show how this language ties into our [...]

anonymous — August 2, 2010

Basing this on my own personal experience - I have found that sexual desires grow and change, and can be cultivated - sometimes consciously. Thus - anything that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted, or touched can be a sexual stimulus. It is much like a person's taste in music, art, or food - only held in higher esteem. Thus, there is very little that can be done on the part of the object of sexual attention. It is the both the intent and the taste of those that gaze that sexualizes.

Anon — August 3, 2010

Having grown up among the sort of men who think in the way these surveys paneled ... I think it's up to the men to police themselves, and told several of them that as I got older. Women can not be held responsible for the 'temptations' of men since so much of it is subjective anyway, and it's terribly irresponsible for the church (whatever that encompasses) to put the responsibility on women, rather than the men who should be policing their own thoughts, anyway.

Geh, this brings back to mind why I'm no longer a part of the church in the first place. I'd much rather be a part of a world where one half of it is not abdicating their personal, moral, and ethical responsibility and placing the fault of their own behavior on the other half.

Frrrrriday Rrrrroundup! (Political Edition) | communicatrix — August 6, 2010

[...] of hilarious and sad, here are a bunch of actual reactions—measured! with science!—of dudes to styles of feminine comportment. [...]

legatob — August 7, 2010

Wow, I just violated a lot of those modesty rules just by stumbling around getting coffee in my pjs. I guess I have no value or quality as a human being and should be treated like an object. All well.

stefanie — August 7, 2010

It's important that both men and women take responsibility for their actions and behavior around the opposite sex. It's not that the whole issue is slanted against women, but the survey doesn't ask about men's impact on women. Just as girls should dress and act in a way that doesn't tempt men to think or feel improperly towards a woman, guys should be respectful of girls' emotional attachments and not play with their feelings. Both Christian guys and Christian girls have the responsibility to honor God and love each other through the various ways in which they interact. It's just that the other side of the issue isn't discussed often or quantitatively understood.

firefly — August 7, 2010

What ever happened to "if your eye offends you, cast it away?" If it's a stumbling block for guys, look away.

link hodgepodge « Clare Forstie — August 9, 2010

[...] results of a survey (conducted by a Christian website) about modesty in girls, via Sociological Images. Something about [...]

Victim Blaming « One in Four… — August 10, 2010

[...] on examining current events through a sociological perspective, recently wrote a post about a survey conducted by a Christian website on conservative Christian men’s thoughts on modesty. The survey had some interesting results, however the most interesting facet of the study lies in the [...]

Open Thread: $500 Million Dollars Lying On The Sidewalk Edition | Alas, a blog — August 11, 2010

[...] Interviews with Christian boys about how girls should dress to be “modest”: Immodesty, then, is not simply about being vigilant about your clothing (don’t wear a purse that falls diagonally across your body, don’t show your arms or your thighs), it’s a constant vigilance about how you display your body (don’t stretch, bend, or bounce). “Clothing plays a part in modesty, but it is only a part,” an 18 year old male explains, “Any item of clothing can be immodest” (his emphasis). [...]

jack — August 31, 2010

When it comes to women's skirts men have a variety of ideas about what is proper when it comes to the length of skirts. Some think that the shorter the skirt is the better their chances are.

Should We Care What Women Wear? « Uplift Magazine — August 31, 2010

[...] should know, because I count myself as one of them!) is kind of distressing. I’m reminded of a very similar poll flagged up on Sociological Images; Young Christian men were surveyed on what items of clothing/ways of [...]

Jo — September 6, 2010

Ugh.. just had to comment on what the men of the survey said:

"Something that is immodest is something that is unnaturally revealing (male, age 20)."

Um... clothes are *natural* at all? Do they grow on trees or something? Coz if they do I'd like to visit that orchard!

"Seeing a girl's chest bounce when she is walking or running is a stumbling block."

Okay, a little realism here. My bra size is 44DD. No supportive garment I wear, (not even the most rigid, tightly laced corset, let along a humble bra), is going to keep the girls from bouncing as I move. I don't even know if it's possible to engineer a garment that could. So in theory, I could cover myself head-to-toe in a reasonable loose garment, and still be an object of lustful temptation, no matter what I do to cover up and hide my body. No matter how much self-monitoring I do, I can't keep them from bouncing, unless I'm going to walk everywhere holding them still with my hands - which hardly draws attention away from them!

Uh-huh. Good thing I'm not worried what the Christian boys think of me.

anonymous for a reason ;) — October 1, 2010

Ok...here is some speculation from totally different point of view...

Men say that when they look at women who are not 'modest' it influences their mind. And that even though they try to, find it hard to NOT think about sex. That means that a woman can have the power to influence HIM (consciously or not). The woman can have power over HIM. And I guess that's not a nice thought. Look at most religions who tend to oppress women. Why is that?

I've experienced this phenomina a lot during webcamming (and yes, I am a webcam girl). When men came back to chat with me they often indirectly blamed me for being the way I look and behave. There were sometimes negative comments on how I was making them spend their money. And despite how it seems...It's just the way things go in the webcam business. The company exploits the models and the men and the models exploit the men (bad bad me)

I find it difficult to describe this matter in english, but I have given it a try.

GET ‘YER BURKAS READY, CHRISTIANS. « Heresy — October 1, 2010

[...] the details and get depressed by clicking here. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Modest is Hottest: Rebelution’s Modesty [...]

T — October 16, 2010

As a child, I was dressed in clothes that men would consider to be imodest.Eg.just a swim suit, short shorts, short dresses, shoulders showing. My Christian dad was the full time bread winner for my family. These clothes were bought with his money. Not once as a child, teenager or women did my dad ever tell me that these clothes were wrong or capable of arousing a man. Why did my Dad allow these clothes to be bought for me as a child?
If men allow their daughters to be dressed this way from birth how do they expect women to magically know that these clothes are wrong?

fred — December 10, 2010

many young women have lost a sense of dignity and decency

Women, Warriors, and Gender Policing | Epiphany 2.0 — December 14, 2010

[...] like sex objects rather than real people, and they’re penalized for their beauty — for example, even their most innocuous behavior can be perceived as a violent assault on men, and therefore deserving of [...]

Mary — December 21, 2010

but the survey had two different types of question, what is immodest versus what is a stumbling block. The guys didn't necessarily think a school uniform was immodest, just a stumbling block. Same with stretching. You can't conclude that they would also say women shouldn't stretch.

It is a different thing to say they are more attracted to girls who don't draw attention to their bodies then to say girls that do shouldn't. When I wear tight pants and a low cut shirt, hell yeah I'm trying to attract guys attention, and it works. Clothes change the way people think about other people. For me I do it because sometimes I want people to remember I am a woman, and yeah, I'm hoping people might hit on me. Admittedly though, they'd be doing it because of my body, not my personality. I don't think that is completely wrong, but it's not completely right either. I think there is something to be recognized in that. So I think you've completely misinterpreted the survey.

forrest — December 21, 2010

i think the greater question is why are men turned on by this and what can we do to keep our thoughts and our minds on Christ alone and not on the lusts of this world. I say, "change not the machinery but change our mechanizing to it" I think every guy needs to confront his own lust for women that are not his wife. But if women are doing these sort of things to get our attention thank you for sharing them with us so we can better be on the lookout against it.

Dibship — December 28, 2010

Hello! I am a male and I have to say... what the hell? I'm sorry but a women could prance down the road naked and the only person responcible for my actions is still myelf. And what is wrong with lust? It's perfectly natural, just learn some control! And hey, if women have to dress prim and proper and not jump/bend over etc so do men, because women also feel lust and want to have sex. So: men not allowed to wear jeans, tight t-shirts, no playing sports ('cause it gets the ladies all hot and sweaty!) Hell, why dont we just castrate everyone so no one feels any lust at all yey! How about a labotomy so no one feels any emotions at all! Yey! Or how about we let people dress how they like and then act like adults instead of like crazy little kids who can't control themselves.

Meow — February 5, 2011

I have a solution! Men should wear Blindfolds at all times, therefore no lustful images can be seen.

Karen — February 19, 2011

Thank you for putting up this article, it's really helpful. One thing, I wouldn't suggest /anyone/ should watch MTV at all, trashy channel.. anyone can go to the mall and see what the latest "attraction trend" is. It's that 'run from evil and do good' sort of thing. :)

Krista — March 22, 2011

I get sick of hearing this stuff all the time.Seems to me that women have to constantly be tip toeing around men all the time to please them. I know this is about modesty, dress etc... but even on the web there is book after book on teaching women how to please men...or dance around his wants, needs, feelings, etc..."How to catch a man and keep him" ( anyone heard of this book? ) .. I read some..bits and pieces of what this book contains and after a while I started to feel like I wasn't important as a women and that it was ALL about the man.I felt like I was supposed to be a slave for a man or something....what about my needs, feeling and wants... By the way the cost for catch a man and keep him was over $200. I am sure a man wouldn't want to spend that kind of money just to learn how to hold on to his woman or catch one ?? Men need to learn what is inside a womens heart also and how to keep her ! Women need to have more pride in themselves and not allow men to have this much control over everything. Sorry but guys you are not the only one who has feelings and needs...we women have hearts also so you might do well for yourselves to learn to understand us as human beings !I do care about my man and want to know his needs and how to understand him as a man...but it would be nice if he tried as hard as I am to understand me as a woman ! Regrading the way women dress etc... I carry my purse across my body so no one can grab it from me..if a man is tempted by that he should see a shrink or something ! men dress in ways that attract women also...tight t-shirts..stuff the show off his muscles and strength etc..so men need to walk around in baggy cloths so nothing shows..and a man ought to watch how he walks too..he might make himself look attractively strong and might cause a woman to feel lust for him !! That would be a sin ...right.. men ? Wouldn't that be tempting us women towards lustful thoughts ?
Also I was on a few dating sites for Christians and find even when all you show is a picture of your face...modestly..the men on there seem to turn an innocent conversation about God..life...etc.. into suggestive conversation...I have had to block alot of Christian men from ever contacting me and have told many off..
men need to take responsibility for them selves and stop putting unreasonable and sometimes unattainable expectations and rules on women !! Hey all you men..try walking in a womens shoes in this male dominated world and see how hard and how much pressure women have ! Maybe then you will treat us like human beings instead of objects to dictate to and control...I am a woman and I am a human being with feelings...and men do pick women based on their looks...personality comes in later. If women knew you would be interested in their personalities the most..they wouldn't try so hard to look attractive in sexy in cloths etc to get your attention..apparently looks do matter to you guys big time !!Men seem to be forgiven for not being all that great looking to women..they can still get pretty women who love them dearly...but a not so attractive women hardly ever gets a great looking man interested in them or loving them ... I guess woman know how to look into a mans heart to love him....while men want the trophy woman on their arm....and even then some are not satisfied...yes there are good men out there...but the majority can learn a few things..

jessica — March 25, 2011

ok I understand that we girls MUST be aware of how we dress and what we do.. but its not just our job. Men/boys can choose to make something of it or not.. Even wearing a turtleneck can be provacative.. they should make one of these for boys. I simply feel that its not just the girls job to be modest. Boys pull your pants up and dont look us up and down and you wont have these issues...

Emilia — May 19, 2011

I so agree with Jessica ..well said. Why should we take all the blame? You can dress a woman in a robe and men will still lust. Jeans arthae tight ,they make them that way. We don't wear "mom jeans anymore. You don't want us to.

Mary — June 6, 2011

I believe in a God, but I don't agree with this
Embrace your beauty and embrace being a woman! you are only given one life, why should you have to worry about what other people think. Its all natural for sexual attraction as Human beings we are part of the cycle of nature.

Lerioux — July 5, 2011

I agree that woman have a responsibility to men to not draw unnecessary attention to certain areas of their bodies, but at the same time, a guy can lust after any girl, not matter what she's wearing. Girls aren't the only ones who need to have modesty, guys do too. They need to have the modesty to not think negatively immediately, but think purely through having a pure heart. It all starts with the heart and intentions, and I'm not just talking about girls here.

Feminism: It’s Necessary « shattersnipe: malcontent & rainbows — August 31, 2011

[...] A survey of Christian men describing the immodesty and lust of women’s bodies; [...]

Afa — September 28, 2011

clueless women just don't get it

Jordan — October 4, 2011

I would like to point out that this project was initiated by females who are trying to keep from being "stumbling blocks" to their friends. Alex and Brett didn't say, "Oh, I know how to oppress women!! We will make them cover their thighs and stomachs!"

Where “When You Wear Blindfolds” Came From | whenyouwearblindfolds — November 29, 2011

[...] you are interested, you can read the article here: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/07/27/guys-on-immodesty-lust-and-the-violence-of-womens-bo... Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. This entry was posted in [...]

Guest — February 25, 2012

I don't see modesty as another way to submit to men, I see it as a way to connect with them on a deeper level. If I wear immodest clothes, he won't view me as a girl he wants to get to know, he'll view me as a girl he'd like to fool around with. It's true; there was a study that showed that when women wear immodest clothing, a mans frontal lobe turns off (which allows men to connect to people and to see them as human). The area of the brain that DOES turn on is the part of the brain that also turns on when he uses tools. Literally, when women wear immodest clothes, women are viewed as objects. It's sad, but true.
Women are lucky to live in a time where women are finally respected, and then we destroy that respect by wearing immodest clothing. Unfortunately, MEN'S BRAINS DON'T WORK LIKE WOMEN'S BRAINS DO, and I do think that, as a women, it's my responsibility to respect their values and to not add to their temptations.
I'll admit though, some of that seems a little ridiculous. I mean really? Bouncing/stretching? Come on. Guys don't have to wear shirts when they go swimming, but I can't walk outside because I jiggle when I walk? I might as well be chained to the wall of my house in the dark. Sorry guys, you're on your own for that one; it's between you and gravity.

What Guys Want A Girl To Do To Them | What Men Want From A Woman — March 8, 2012

[...] can help you enhance your expertise of what guys want a girl to do to them. It’s the occasion to relax. That will also help. Therefore, like my cousin used to say, “You should make like a [...]

Lucy S — April 1, 2012

I have been reading up on this topic, curious. Now I believe that what some people describe as dressing 'modestly', other people describe as dressing 'respectably'.

It's the same coin, taken from different sides.

What people who embrace modesty are saying is that you can't stand there in a string bikini and shrilly demand respect. It just doesn't work that way.

If you can't imagine why, reverse the sexes. If a man stood before you in a thong and stomped his foot and demanded you take him seriously, would you be able to?

What White Men Want In A Black Woman | What Men Want From A Woman — April 7, 2012

[...] were insisting on doing it. What precisely is what white men want in a black woman, for instance? If it sounds like the kind of what white men want in a black woman that you would be interested in, [...]

ms_elroy — April 9, 2012

Just want to add....teaching your daughters that their bodies incite men to violent acts and sin also teaches them that any subsequent sin or violent act is in part their fault, which is horrible.
and also- A woman could be wearing a burlap sack and will still be harassed and stared at by men all day long UNTIL OUR SOCIETAL ATTITUDES TOWARD WOMEN CHANGE. It does not matter what women wear, as long as they are viewed as subhuman, violence will be perpetuated.
I would like to point out that in countries where the burqa is worn by women, sexual violence is even more prevelant, it does not somehow magically save women from the harmful gaze and sexual violence from men. Please don't place the blame and burden of societies inherent sexism on the shoulders of your young girls. It is not their fault, please instead turn to your boys and start educating them about the dangerous effect that our society has on their young minds with regard to the dehumanization of women in our world.

Nobody — May 7, 2012

Apparently no one making comments understands what the bible says about lust. 1 John 2:15-17. Read it, understand it. Then, when you fully understand, make a comment.

DontCauseStumble — June 13, 2012

For the women:
1 Corinth 8:13 "Therefore, if
food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my
brother stumble." in other words "Don't be the cause of people sinning."
---------------------------1 Tim 2:9-10 "Likewise also
that women should adorn themselves in RESPECTABLE apparel, with MODESTY
and self-CONTROL, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly
attire {drawing attention to self}, but with what is proper for women
who profess godliness—with GOOD WORKS."
---------------------------1 Peter 3:3-4 "Do not let
your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of
gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the
hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and
quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious."

hoppytoad79 — August 29, 2012

Yes, absolutely! A sermon aimed at the women of my church (titled 'Immodesty: Women Lust, Too') brassed me off so much I left early on in tears I was so upset. There was more to it why I was so upset than just the subject matter or title (which I'm not even going to start on), but the whole thrust of it was how women can help men not to lust. Yeah, I get that avoiding halter tops and miniskirts is a good idea if you want to dress modestly, but at no time was it mentioned that it's the man who is ultimately responsible for choosing not to keep looking at a woman who's inspired lustful thoughts in his mind, or to wolf whistle, or call out comments, or anything. I guess that was supposed to have been addressed the previous week when he discussed male lust--and speaking of that, when he was supposedly addressing lust in females, it was how women can help men not lust, so it was actually, once again, about men. My pastor, who I had no idea was this misogynistic, actually said (in as many words) that females lust after getting attention from men. That's a major driving lust in our lives and we need to be careful of that. Right. Patronizing, misogynistic, and totally wrong much? Yeah, we like attention from men, but there are many reasons women dress the way they do. Crap like my pastor spewed that week is was fuels victim blaming and men thinking women are begging for attention of the sexual kind just because they dressed/stood/looked at them in a certain way.

Hannaremnant — September 5, 2012

Reading this article reminded me of my later high school years at my old church where the pastors were constantly telling us that we were animals or something. Anyway, it's just another form of perversion to say modesty in and of itself is the answer. What is this legalistic bull s***? Where is the gospel -the Christ who broke down the power of sin, Hell, and Satan -in all of this? As far as I'm concerned, talking or writing or noticing these trends, makes little difference. Sure, "society" needs to change -but how? Through more rules and regulations...? Isn't that why we need the Gospel? Or do you take your Gospel in one hand, and legalism in the other?

Oracledelphi — November 3, 2012

In prehistoric times (and in much of history) the primary sexual interaction between men and women was rape. This is the natural state of things.

Christianity calls us to restrain our natural urges, which is part and parcel of our freedom from original sin. Christian men, and men of principal in modern society are heroic in these times in their amazing ability to restrain themselves against the onslought of immodistythrown at them by women.ain themselves. Women dress, even in church, in ways that would have made Mary Magdalen blush in her "working days" and think nothing of it.

It is very simple and very logical: When a woman dresses in such a way that she knows will make men want to have sex with her, she shares the guilt of their lust--and when a woman goes about publicly dressed this way, that is a lot of guilt. Of course, this is in addition to the guilt she incurrs by intentionally causing psychological pain among those men who strive to remain chaste.

Dressing immodestly is nothing less than sexual flirting ladies. If you rationalize that it isn't you are only fooling yourself and perpetuating your sin.

SandyS — February 17, 2013

I think this is ridiculous. I'm a mom. If I hear my infant son screaming, I'm going to bend over and pick him up. My breasts will bounce when I walk, there is no bra in the world strong enough to prevent that. I don't want to have to feel riddled with guilt for simply walking. I don't want to have to stop and evaluate my behavior in order to prevent someone from lusting.That's not my responsibility. The responsibility should be on the man doing the looking--not on me. No matter what I do, guys will look. Whether I dress appropriately or not, a lustful guy will lust. If it's not me, he'll lust after someone else. It's his job to learn to control that--not mine. It's not a rape victim's fault that she got raped. It's not my fault that a guy assaulted me in his mind. That's his issue. Not mine.

Diane Moffatt — June 15, 2013

Humans feel lust. This is normal. Deal with it.

Guys on Immodesty, Lust, and the Violence of Women’s Bodies | Astigmatic Revelations — June 15, 2013

[...] Guys on Immodesty, Lust, and the Violence of Women’s Bodies [...]

Sal — June 15, 2013

How would these men feel if women told them what they could and couldn't wear? Women have lustful feelings too, ya know.

Personally, I'm turned on by guys with beards. Should I just start going up to guys and saying, "oh excuse me sir, would you mind shaving your beard? It's causing me to stumble."

Zuzanna Zofia — June 16, 2013

Most amazing are thoughts about natural moves like WALKING, stretching bending. It's just plain hypocrisy that they suggest seductive intention, of course all of those modesty rules are hypocritical, but those are the worst. Women walk, stretch and bend because they must move in space, pick up things and their backs hurt. Their breasts bounce because that's what breast do, even in a good bra - and I guess wearing a very firmly holding bra, which make breasts more visible is also sinful?

It's surprising how those guys see such innocent moves as walking or stretching as sexual... How did it happen? Those things aren't very erotic per se, but they are often depicted as such in movies or... p*rn. What those demanding Christian guys are feeding their minds? Bad, bad... you watched sinful stuff and you're rotten now. Stay away from Christian sisters, dirty perverts.

It’s Summer! Head to the Beach and Reveal Your Dignity!? | The Fifth Floor — July 4, 2013

[...] then they should be responsible for their behavior. (For an interesting look at this, check out this post at Sociological Images. I was so encouraged by the respondent who said it is his responsibility “to not treat women [...]

patagoniakidd — May 8, 2014

Clearly the survey was done in a Muslim nation...

Guys on Immodesty, Lust, and the Violence of Women’s Bodies (feimineach) — February 14, 2015

[…] Guys on Immodesty, Lust, and the Violence of Women’s Bodies […]

God's girl — March 28, 2015

Hi, I am a Christian girl and I agree with Rey. It is the women's responsibility to not be a stumbling block to both her brothers in Christ and other men. As the last comment on this modesty piece, we must work together, and that goes for the men as well. Don't encourage immodesty among women. I am not saying women can't stretch, run, bend over, wear jewelry, or do their hair etc., but don't do it for the purpose of getting male attention. Keep your clothing modest, you can still wear skirts, pants, and cute clothing, just keep in mind the length and how much you are revealing. Keep yourself pure until after marriage, and save yourself for your husband. Remember, the rules that God places in the Bible are to protect all of us, not to hurt us. God knows everything and sets rules for us because He loves us very, very much. My advice: pray, study His word on this subject, and remember that He loves His children.

Shawn — October 2, 2015

"There is a personal and a social modesty.

Personal modesty is concerned mostly with the exercising of a strict control over one's own senses, especially the eyes,...

Social modesty may be defined as a virtue which seeks to protect the chastity of other person, or at least not to endanger it. It is ever careful to avoid anything that is calculated to excite bad thoughts and desires in others or lead them to sinful actions.

Social modesty requires decent attire in the presence of others, even about the home; the avoidance of all undo familiarity, especially withe the opposite sex, and suggestive looks, speech, gait, etc.; and in general a prudent reserve in one's whole appearance and behavior...

Social immodesty is classed under the sin of scandal...

Some men are afflicted with impure thoughts and desires when only looking at a pretty feminine face, even when the woman is modest in attire and behavior. But when the latter is immodest, she becomes a temptress for many normal men, who succumb to such allurements...

...God has given woman a much more delicate sense of modesty than man. Not only to protect her own integrity, but also to protect man against the fury of his passions. When woman is modest, man has only himself to blame is[sic] he succumbs to the temptation of the flesh. But when she decides to display parts of her body which should be covered, she becomes a seducer, and she shares in the guilt of the man. In fact, Theology teaches that the sin of the seducer is far greater than that of the seduced person...

'We recall that a dress cannot be called modest which is cut deeper than two fingers' breadth under the pit of the throat, which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows, and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent material are improper.'"

My Life in Prayer Book. pp. 234-248

I suppose that I must mention that the description of modest apparel above was written before pants were widely worn. Pants are definitely immodest. I have read that advertisers have studied men's eye movements when looking at a woman in pants. They have discovered that pants are like arrows pointing towards the private parts.

The only reason a man would have weak or nonexistent desires is if he was unhealthy. It is a truth in biology that the health of the animal is determined by his ability to procreate. The big cause of unhealthy men (in this respect) in current times is feminizing chemicals, such as those in plastics.

I once experienced a period of decreased passions. It was when I worked for a city service department where 95% of my co-workers were men.

If I were king, I would make a law punishing at 150% of the punishment meted out to the men all women wearing immodest clothing while being a victim of a sex crime. Of course it goes without saying that immodest clothing would be outlawed (as indecent exposure is currently outlawed) and the law would be well publicized. Thus women could not hide behind the excuse that they were ignorant of the law.

Tamika — December 9, 2015

These men who get turned on by every wimp and wave of a woman's body need to get on the altar and pray until they get filled with the Holy Ghost and fire to burn up all those impurities of the heart, flesh and spirit. I am Apostolic and dress EXTREMELY MODEST but still get second and third looks from men in church in my skirts and dresses and even preachers are guilty so it's not all about how modest a woman dresses even though that is biblical and highly important. But if you are overly consumed by lustful thoughts and feelings then we women can be dressed in a Catholic robe covered from neck to ankle but guys will STILL want sex simply because they are horny and out of control!!!!!

15 microaggresions women in the church deal with on a daily basis — July 26, 2016

[…] Women who wear something someone finds sexy are guilty for making him lust . . . even if the outfit isn’t something anyone in their right mind would get in a hissy about! […]

15 micro aggressions women in the church deal with on a daily basis — July 12, 2017

[…] Women who wear something someone finds sexy are guilty for making him lust . . . even if the outfit isn’t something anyone in their right mind would get in a hissy about! […]

Anonymous — January 22, 2020

Some of these we can’t help. It’s just how our bodies are. Woman in history and today have lived separated from the husbands by cloth because the men can’t control themselves. I should be able to wear a purse with the strap across my body because otherwise I will lose it. And I should be able to bend over or crack my back without worrying about being immodest. There are some that we should have control over. If we don’t wear make up, men will be less likely to be drawn to us. If we dress to cover ourselves, then we won’t turn anybody on. I think we should definitely make modesty an important factor in our life, but don’t stress it so much that you are thinking about it every minute. The point of modesty is so that we can focus our attention on God and not each other’s bodies. But if we are so focused in our modesty, are we really doing that?

Kylynn C — November 4, 2021

This survey is 100% not ok and not accurate and demeaning towards womens bodies. Women should not be taught that their bodys are stumbling blocks. A man is responsible for his own actions and his own thoughts. The way a girl walks is not even a question of modesty its how she walks!?! Excersing is something everyone can do and shouldnr be sequalized for. The issue with this survey is that the way a girl dresses is not up to men or boys. Its between what she is comfortable in and god. Asking men what they think of diffrent types of clothing is nt their choice. we do not dress modestly to please men. we do not dress modestly to make sure that we are not "stumbling blocks"!! If a man thinks you are a stumbling block that is own thought an dhe needs to start thinking of you ask a Person not just a Body for his desire. We are NOT objects to be viewed. We are here to please God to fufil what god as set us out to do. Which is to bring all the nations to Jesus to shrae the gosel with the intire world so that we can all go live in eternal life with jesus. We should work towards this common goal with out brothers and sisters in christ but we should not be living to please men and make them happy with how "modest" we appear.

https://www.grace-bible.org/beliefs-and-values.aspx
-- link to a church that teahces the true meaning of the gospel and how were meant to live and how truly good god is

https://www.reddit.com/r/Above_Purity/comments/hvn00e/did_anyone_ever_read_the_modesty_survey_by_the/
--similar page about this modesty survey

Emily — May 3, 2022

Since when has men being animals who apparently can't control themselves been women's fault? And I seem to remember their precious Bible telling them to gouge their own eyes out if they offend them, so... Suck it up!

Tanya — October 16, 2022

Firstly, this survey seems to suggest that the existence of women is a stumbling block for men, I mean breasts bouncing when women walk, like c’mon really? Yeah well our chest moves when we breathe let’s all just hold our breaths too..
There seems to be a dangerous level of sexual repression here, so much so that even a woman bending over is a stumbling block.. like c’mon if you feel this way you need a therapist.

I am honestly pretty disgusted by this line of thinking and I think that things like this are the reason people are turning away from the church.

My opinion is that the bible tends to suggest that Christian women should dress modestly to church but can wear whatever she wants elsewhere as long as it’s not ridiculous I.e., a bikini at the mall (whereas a bikini at the beach is totally acceptable- see context ladies) the Bible was written thousands of years ago and I’m certain a loving God would understand that as time changes, clothing also will change; it’s just a given- also the Ten Commandments (which are by the way the main guidelines) don’t say thou shalt wear hessian bags, instead they kindly suggest that we should love thy neighbour, it doesn’t say only love her if she’s wearing a hessian bag, thus sexy clothing is fine as long as Women don’t wear the clothing as a way of actively hating people.

Conservative Christians often quote Paul as a way of telling women what to wear, even in the comments someone suggests that Paul said women “should dress modestly” the key word is “should” not “must” and also this quote comes at a time where women needed to protect themselves because there was no police thus what was warranted then isn’t as warranted now.

If I want to wear a top which is low cut and you don’t like it- look the hell away that’s why you have a neck. It is unloving of you to sexualise me just because you think the way I dress, bend, walk, breath or think gives you any ownership over my body. Maybe instead try to better your lustful soul. Lots of love x